Interview With Desmond Meade – Best-Selling Author and Voting Rights Activist
Dave Kartunen:
Our guest, this episode, who we are delighted to welcome to the Fair Fight Initiative Podcast is Desmond Meade. One of the top 100 most influential people, a MacArthur fellow, and of course, led the successful effort through Amendment 4 in Florida to restore voting rights to formerly incarcerated people. A formerly incarcerated person himself, he now has a law degree and he leads the Florida Rights Restoration Coalition.
Linda Franks:
Mr. Desmond Meade, thank you so much for being here today with us. I so appreciate you taking time out of what is a busy agenda that you have, to speak to the people today here on the Fair Fight Initiative Podcast. I’m a fan. I’m just a fan. I was looking back at some of the footage that they have of you, just getting myself ready to speak to you, and there was one clip of you when you were helping the gentleman to vote and they rejected him, and just the passion and the emotion that you felt. And sometimes, what I thought in myself, I said, “Look how strong you are, look at what a warrior you are in our village for our people.” And I was just so overwhelmingly proud of the Black man that you are. I thought about my brother and I thought about my husband and all of you guys in this society, and a lot of times, they just use you as a battering ram for everything that they want to get across.
Desmond Meade:
No, I appreciate that. I really appreciate it. And I remember that video you’re referencing. And I’m going to tell you, I really didn’t feel strong in that moment, but as you was talking and I was thinking about it, I guess there’s a different way of looking at strength. And so, while you were talking, what came to mind was that our strength really shows up in moments of weakness. There is that need for that, just like they talk about with courage. When you have people saying, “Well, I ain’t scared of nothing, whatever,” and to me, I felt like “Really, come on, get out of here,” because, at the end of the day, the necessary element for courage is fear.
Linda Franks:
Amen.
Desmond Meade:
And if you don’t have fear, that means that you’re reckless. And it’s nothing wrong with fear. And I say that because going back to what you said, sometimes folks don’t want to think that they’re weak, but there’s nothing wrong with weakness. It’s not a bad thing. We’re not strong in everything, but our strength can show up in those moments of weakness, and so, we embrace those moments of weakness because it gives us an opportunity to go stronger.
Linda Franks:
Amen.
Dave Kartunen:
I love that too. I always like to say that people who are feeling weakness tend to be giving off signs of strength. And it’s a real sign of strength to show vulnerability. And I couldn’t agree more with you. And I think it is the perfect sort of preface for what we want to talk to you about today. I think we want to preface this by saying, if you don’t know who Desmond Meade is by this point, go buy his memoir because we’re not going to rehash it here. We’d love to rehash it here, but we got to talk about what’s next. And we need some marching orders and we need to change tactics, and we need to know how to combat what’s happening on the ground right now. And I mean, there’s news here too. I mean, there’s some good news about Senate Bill 90. That’s Florida’s voter suppression bill that got held up. You want to update us there first?
Desmond Meade:
Yeah. Well, I believe it was in the Northern district of Florida. Federal Judge Walker issued a blistering opinion on SB 90. And it’s really like throwing the monkey wrench in legislators plan to really minimize involvement. A lot of folks use voter suppression. But let me tell you, when you talk about tactics and approaches, one thing I learned today, if we don’t change how we look at things, the way we see things never change.
Dave Kartunen:
Come on now.
Desmond Meade:
And so, voter suppression, that’s a very popular term or term of art, but I think it’s much deeper than that. And I think that we cannot limit what’s really happening and limit who’s actually doing it to us, because, when we strip away all the veneers, what we basically see is that since the formation of this country, there have been people who want to pick and choose who get to make the decisions or decide who leads us, in so many different ways, from wanting it only to be landowners, and then didn’t want… I mean, it’s only recently that women was able to get the right to vote. Women were actually brutalized, beaten down on the street, and thrown in jails, all because they wanted the right to vote, and there were people that did not want women or didn’t feel that women should be a part of the group of people that get to pick and choose.
Desmond Meade:
And so, that, I think, is the bigger picture; that people who want to pick and choose who get to vote for them. And then the other part is that we cannot limit it to one particular party over the other. While one party might be more dominated on the news or whatever about these tactics, we have to realize that when we look at the history of our country, what we see is that this is happening on both sides. Even today, you have a part of the spotlight… No, part of the things that get exposed when the spotlight is on Florida, is our governor’s attempt to really redraw the maps, gain more seats for the Republican party. And there’s a huge outcry about that, but at the same time, in blue states, the exact same thing is happening.
Linda Franks:
It’s happening. That’s right.
Desmond Meade:
But there’s no outcry about that. And so, when you have two sides that are doing the same thing, but you’re only complaining about one side, then it takes away the legitimacy of your argument or the sincerity of your argument. If you’re really fighting for more inclusive democracy for everyone, then you have to be even-keeled and you have to be able to call out both sides. And the best way to call out both sides is to really take a more holistic approach and to go deeper than just a tactic because they’re various tactics. Some use gerrymandering, some use felony disenfranchisement, some uses open or closed primary, depending on who you talk to. There are all these different tactics that are being used. And so, what I look at is that what we’re looking at, more than anything, is an attack against democracy.
Desmond Meade:
The democracy that we would want us to have in this country. And there’s so many ways that folks are attacking. And these folks that are doing it are primarily politicians, and some is driven through self-interest and some is driven through the interest of the people who are backing or supporting it. So, I think that being able to really broaden our argument and create a bigger tent that hold people accountable, would allow us. And this is the beautiful part; would allow us the ability to broaden our tent to bring in more people in our efforts to combat against it, because, if you’re saying, “Oh, these Republicans are doing this, Republicans are doing this,” then you’re not bringing in too many independents, you’re not bringing in too many Republicans who believe.
Linda Franks:
That’s right. There are people who have different political opinions, but believe in the same fundamentals that we do, but if we’re only attacking their folks and not really holding both sides accountable, then we lose out on the opportunity to engage with those people to actually grow the movement and actually bring about change.
Dave Kartunen:
Yeah. Linda talks about this. And Linda, I want you to tee it up because you have to do the same thing with jail guards inside a facility you want to close. And there’s a legitimacy there that, like you said, Desmond, evaporates immediately. Right, Linda?
Linda Franks:
Exactly. And when we talk about that inclusivity, when I got into criminal justice reform after the death of my son, back in 2015, I realized quite quickly that we had to be comprehensive in our approach. Just what you’re talking about, that it wasn’t about attacking what the problem was or attacking who we felt was our enemy in this space, but trying to broaden that conversation into how do we bring more people into this conversation, so they can see their commonalities with each other.
Linda Franks:
Because, if we just make it a black and white thing, if we just make it a Republican/Democratic thing, then we’re going to lose, which really, I think is the majority of the populace; are those people that fall on both of those lines, that are in that juicy part in the middle. Like Dave talks about, the corrections officer who is literally really just trying to take care of his family and has to work in this situation. So, if I demonize him, then I take his humanity away to even show how he really wants to work in a place where he can be proud of. He really wants… Go ahead, Desmond. Go ahead.
Desmond Meade:
And minimize… You minimize everyone else’s perspective.
Linda Franks:
Exactly.
Desmond Meade:
One of the things that I always say is that I don’t have a monopoly on the pain and suffering. And I sure don’t have a monopoly on the solution. And so many times, we come up with these great ideas, and they could be great ideas, of how to fix things, but when we just totally disregard other people’s perspective on how this thing could be fixed then they disengage and they end up becoming opponents. And if we could actually have those conversations and look at the other side, because, a lot of times, recovery has taught me that you have got to put yourself in someone else’s position. And many of you do so. It’s a shift in how you are engaging with them, how you’re approaching the issue. But if we’re in a vacuum, it’s just going to be your reality versus another person’s reality, and you’re going to get frustrated because you’re like, “How in the hell could they even believe that?”
Linda Franks:
Can you even not know? Right.
Desmond Meade:
And you get frustrated and angry, and then you’re attacking them and you could possibly be attacking a person that’s real good because you haven’t had a conversation with them.
Linda Franks:
And strategically, if you’re trying to accomplish something, it makes no sense, that you’re going to alienate as many people. And then also, to think… I mean, I remember one of my pastors in the past used to say, “If your church is an only church that is supposed to be saving the souls of everyone on this planet, then you got a lot of work to do.” Seeing where we can work together, it makes it a bigger fight. Henderson says, “You get this system, you got to kill it with…” What is it? “Death by a thousand cuts.” And so, we just a little slasher right here doing our part.
Desmond Meade:
Well, one of the things with people and I talk about even with the kids, a little kid, a little child with a toy. When you try to take that toy away from that child. I don’t know if you’ve ever had any experience like that, but you try to take that, pull that toy away from that child, and they’re grabbing on to that toy for dear life and screaming at the top of their lungs and crying. And man, you are going… I mean, it is just traumatic. And I learned when I was young… And I used to babysit my nephews and nieces. What I learned was, the best way to get a toy out of a child’s hands is to put something else in its place.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Desmond Meade:
Once that child puts that toy down and grab the other toy, then you easily could just pick up that toy. But when you are trying to just snatch something away from someone one. And so, sometimes I’m even cautious even with… And it might come out from here to there, but even when you talk about attacking this system and rather than me saying I’m attacking or I’m trying to take something away, that the other alternative is that I’m creating something new and different.
Linda Franks:
Amen.
Desmond Meade:
I’m creating, I want to create a solution, want to come to a solution, and want to offer up something that people can actually take a hold. And when they take a hold of that, they’re done with the old and you are able to move that out of the way. And so, how-
Linda Franks:
Amen. That’s fresh.
Desmond Meade:
… To create these moments, the type of environment that would allow for us to create together and have someone put their thing down and pick up the new thing that they was a part of creating.
Dave Kartunen:
Oh man, is that the trick, right?
Linda Franks:
That’s the word for the season, Desmond. That’s the word for the season. Let me tell you, I’m going to a women’s retreat at the end.
Linda Franks:
Put on a shirt. I’m going to a women’s retreat in April. It’s a Christian retreat. And God gave this woman the theme of, a new thing; that God is doing a new thing. And before I moved to Louisiana, one of my friends spoke that word over me, that God was wanting to do a new thing. And it was so amazing because we know that there is nothing new under the sun, but what I told them was that what seems new to us is not new to God. So, when you say about creating something new, that is so in line with what I feel like it’s in this atmosphere, because, people say, “Well, we want to reform the system.”
Linda Franks:
Well, the system is working the way that it was designed to work. So, what you say is so true. It’s not that we need to attack it or we need to create something new. We need to create an alternative. I tell the people that I work with here, about the fact that when we got into this, it wasn’t enough to take people’s… What I equate to that Hillary Quinton moment, when they talk about her going and closing down all the coal mines, but what she didn’t do was come back and say, “What I have to offer you.” So, they were able to take that and use that, right?
Desmond Meade:
Matter of fact-
Desmond Meade:
She should have led with that.
Linda Franks:
Yeah. She should have led with, “What I’m coming to give you.” Yes.
Desmond Meade:
Because even when you talk about these prisons, when you look at the communities in which a lot of these prisons are in, they’re the main source of employment in the economy. And then, so you have people in that community that depend on these prisons, and you talk about taking it away, you know they’re going to get up in arms, just like you would if somebody was talking about taking away the main source of income for your community.
Linda Franks:
That’s right.
Desmond Meade:
And so, I think what’s the best… And I just made this up. Trust me, I made it up. Old raggedy club that everybody go to. And I mean, the food is horrible, but you try to shut that one club down in that city, you’re going to catch up.
Linda Franks:
You better know it.
Desmond Meade:
What you do is that you create a new club and put the things in the club that the people would want. And you don’t have to worry about shutting that club down. Those people are going to move right from that old club to the new club.
Linda Franks:
That’s right.
Desmond Meade:
Guess what, when you go to condemn that building, ain’t nobody even paying no mind to that.
Linda Franks:
No mind attention, exactly.
Dave Kartunen:
I could name all of those clubs in all the different towns that I lived in.
Dave Kartunen:
But here’s the trick, and this is where systems of oppression and systems of control have gained their dominance; is that their system really benefits a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of people in power, but they’ve convinced so many more. And I can think of two really quick examples of this. You go back to the civil war, and you had a bunch of rich slave-owners convince poor white people that if they didn’t fight for the Confederacy, that the slaves were going to come for what they had. There was actually no benefit for white, poor slaving-owning to fight for the Confederacy, and yet, they did, harder than anybody.
Dave Kartunen:
Yeah. Fast forward all the way to 2010 with Obamacare, and it was, “We can’t pass Obamacare because those people will get the health insurance that you think you are benefiting from right now,” when really, the only people that are really, really benefiting are the very, very top. So, they’ve done a very good job at that. How do we convince that guy who works a horrible job at a prison, with a rundown club, and his wife probably turns over bedsheets in a hotel, in a rundown town, that they’re not benefiting from this?
Desmond Meade:
It’s not even telling them that they’re not benefiting. I think that is wrong.
Dave Kartunen:
I’m already off on the wrong foot.
Desmond Meade:
You’re off on the wrong track already. Because I mean, at the end of the day, so for instance, even with Amendment 4, our first contact or conversation with someone was not about what they weren’t getting. It wasn’t about that. I think it was completely different. I mean, we didn’t talk about how messed up the clemency system was in Florida. We didn’t leave with that. We left with love. And it was a very simple question. “Do you know someone who you love who’s ever made a mistake?” We started with that. And so, when you talk about that prison guard, I’m not trying to convince him how messed up of a situation he’s in. And as a pretext for me wanting to shut that prison down, what I will go to him with is the opportunity that he has to do much more than just be a prison guard.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Desmond Meade:
And so, one of the things that when I was thinking about… Well, one of the ideas that was floating through my head, is how to… That prison camp in Louisiana, how to convince a major corporation to come and take over that camp and offer jobs, probably even more jobs to that community, that pays even more money.
Linda Franks:
Right.
Desmond Meade:
Because a lot of these guards are making maybe minimum wage or a little bit above minimum wage, a lot of these guards does not have a college education or anything like that. How do we create this ecosystem where “Man, listen, you’re going to get to go to school, get your degree, you’re going to be able to get a job that pays almost twice as much as what you are making, and you don’t have to worry about the danger, and you get to advance your career.” I promise you that the overwhelming majority of prison guards is not sitting back at home, day-dreaming about being a prison guard. Prison guard is the choice that they are forced to take, and they’re going to protect it with their life because there in the mindset, “This is all I got.”
Linda Franks:
All I got.
Desmond Meade:
All I can do. So, I’m not even going to try to make it look bad because to him, listen, his perspective is, “Man, this is the best thing going on.”
Linda Franks:
Best thing going right now.
Desmond Meade:
That it’s not, it’s going to fall on deaf ears and he’s going to look at you that, “I don’t like that outsider there. Even though you’re saying some good stuff.
Linda Franks:
I get it.
Desmond Meade:
But what I can do is give him hope, but the key is how are we actually engaging with them and connecting them to the issue. Prior to trying to say, “This is how we fix it.” No, let’s connect you first. So, to be able to connect with someone who they love, who made a mistake, and we’ve connected to the emotion of forgiveness and redemption, because, they love someone, they feel that this guy should have a second chance, then we can talk about, “Well, in Florida, the person that you love will never get the right to vote back or will have a hard time getting jobs or housing”. And then you get people to say, “That’s not right.” And that’s the key.
Linda Franks:
That’s not right.
Desmond Meade:
That’s not fair. Those three words, that’s it. How do we get them to say that? Once you get them to say that, they’re yours.
Linda Franks:
Yours.
Dave Kartunen:
I start with that’s not right, and that’s my problem.
Linda Franks:
And here’s the thing too, Desmond, because, we would be so remiss if we didn’t bring you to that point where you’re saying, “Okay, how are we spreading this love?” What are some things that you can say? Is it just like, you know what, one day, you just get up and you say, “Let’s just get some people,” and we’re just going to hit these streets running.
Dave Kartunen:
That’s fun. It sounds fun.
Linda Franks:
What does that look like? Because I know that’s a… And I engage in it myself. I know that’s a lot of work behind the scenes. That’s a lot of prep, right?
Desmond Meade:
That’s a lot of work, that’s a lot of… But I think it’s something deeper than that. And you listen, Dave already set the tone from the very beginning, that you didn’t bring me on this show to just scratch the surface.
Linda Franks:
No.
Desmond Meade:
I’m on this show to get deep. So, let me-
Linda Franks:
Dig down in there.
Desmond Meade:
Right. The surface answers. What’s important? Hitting the streets? You’re ready for this?
Linda Franks:
I’m ready.
Desmond Meade:
Is having the courage to go places that you’re not comfortable.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Desmond Meade:
Yeah. What a lot of people do when they hit the streets, they go to their comfort zone and they’re preaching to the choirs and all that kind of stuff. And that is, I mean, from campaigns all the way down. I mean, I’ve seen campaigns where they spent a whole bunch of money to rent out an arena to bring a candidate there. And then complain when the other folks don’t turn out to vote, which is, to me, insane. At the end of the day, if you really want to hit the streets, if you really… Because here’s the whole thing. Well, in my book… I’m glad you said we can’t discuss it too much, but I’m telling you, get my book.
Desmond Meade:
Because in the book, there’s a piece in there, I talked about the Obama campaign, the first run for election, and I equated it to recovery. Talking about how, in recovery, we may consciously say that we want a good life, we want to live, but we end up doing destructive things and using drugs, and our actions are contrary to what we consciously say. And in the book, I talk about the reason that is, is because our conscious is in the minority, our subconscious, which is probably 90% of-
Dave Kartunen:
It’s the iceberg right.
Desmond Meade:
And while the conscious might say, “I want to live,” you subconscious is saying, “I want to die.” And you’re going to continue doing destructive things. And so, I talk about how your head is a democratic society. And there are folks who are thinking that you’re not worth living, you’re not worthy of having joy. How do we approach those people who say you’re not worthy?
Linda Franks:
Not worthy.
Desmond Meade:
And Obama did something similar. Oh, no, because remember, he wasn’t even the front run. There were people that were like, “Oh no, he’s not qualified, he’s this, he’s not that.” And he went to those people because if you just hung around the people who supported him, he would not have grown his base. And he kept going until he got the majority in, one, the democratic nomination. But here’s the thing. In politics, there’s this thing called margin of error, and it could be a five-point swing.
Desmond Meade:
And so, while you have 51%, something could happen, could swing three or five votes, and the next thing you know, you’re in minority. And so, as in recovery, just because now you have the majority that is agreeing with you, that doesn’t mean that you stop. You’ve got to continue building and continue going after those people who think that you’re not going to be, because, you want to build your margin of error so wide that if you have a breakup in the relationships, if you lose your job, if you have a death in the family, and things of that nature, you won’t lose so much votes that you will pick up a drink or a drug and relapse. When you talk about hitting the streets and going out, it’s the same thing; is that don’t just go to people who you are comfortable with.
Linda Franks:
Exactly.
Desmond Meade:
If you go into communities… When I got my first petition off the printing press, out of the copier, you know where I went? I went to a conservative county and I only approached people who wore T-shirts, that indicated that they were supporting some Republican candidates. What a lot of people don’t really… Well, what a lot of people don’t know is that part of the process of this initiative, its collective petitions, and you have to collect certain amount of petitions in each congressional district, and you have to qualify a minimum amount of congressional districts. The first two congressional districts that were qualified, I think the first three, but definitely the first two, were all conservative district.
Linda Franks:
Yes, indeed.
Desmond Meade:
Because if I can go, the people who I’m uncomfortable going to and convince them that there’s something right here. I can go on Fox News and talk to Tucker Carlson and find out whatever he tried to do. His own fans is telling him to back the hell off because-
Linda Franks:
All for you. Amen.
Desmond Meade:
Right. And so, do that by being courageous enough to talk to people that you’re not familiar with.
Dave Kartunen:
Where else can we do this? Because you said two things that I know you’re working on, and I want you to share with people. There is the right to restore voting rights, but there are two things I think that are also very personal for you too, around housing and employment. Can you still not get a mortgage because you’re a returning person?
Desmond Meade:
Listen, I am still… Well, it became a lot easier because I have my civil rights restored. However, even with your civil rights restored, there still remains remnants of barriers to being able to get housing.
Dave Kartunen:
Little boxes at the bottom of applications.
Desmond Meade:
And even if you don’t have the box, these folks might run a credit check, and on your credit report, it would show up that you’ve been convicted. And so, I remember running into this lady that went to buy… She bought the house, but she couldn’t close on the house because she couldn’t get insured on the house. No one would insure her because she had a conviction. And so, I naturally just assumed, I said, “So, what? You was convicted of arson or something?” She was like, “Nah.” It was she was just convicted of drug possession. I just automatically assumed, “Okay, well insurance agent or a company would not ensure someone because they had a history of burning down homes or insurance fraud.”
Dave Kartunen:
Right. Seems reasonable.
Desmond Meade:
That’s reasonable. But no, it was she had a simple drug conviction. And so, those barriers still remain. It’s been a little bit easier, because, less than a year… Been less than a year since I’ve had my civil rights restored, and so it makes it a lot easier, but there’s still challenges that’s there. Because I got my civil rights restored, I can now take the bar, sit for the floor in the bar.
Dave Kartunen:
Yes.
Desmond Meade:
In the past, couldn’t because a certain occupational licenses require the restoration of these civil rights. And then the other piece is gun ownership. I’m just keeping it real. And I know people all over the place with gun ownership, but at the end of the day, I should be able to have a gun at my home, I should be able to have my family protected. My wife should be able to have a gun to protect herself. And if somebody comes in our home, any one of us should be able to protect our home, but because of a felony conviction, I don’t have a right to own a gun. And so, that is something that’s also, I believe, important as well.
Dave Kartunen:
So, there’s the same dynamic there with the “I don’t want those people moving into my neighborhood for housing,” or “I don’t want those people working in my workplace” if it’s the box on an application, same dynamic. How do you come to a place of love? Is it the same place of love? Do you know someone who’s made a mistake.
Desmond Meade:
Oh no, listen, there you go. Because-
Desmond Meade:
Listen, anybody’s going to say, “I don’t want those people.” It’s so easy for us to say, “I don’t want.” You ask a woman with kids, “You want a sex offender living next to you?” “Oh, I don’t want those people.” I mean, come on. And so, one of the things… Now I talk to people about narratives and the power of narratives, and what the thing that narrative does, some narratives, not all. But in particular, around crime and criminal justice. And that’s why our words are so important; is that a narrative around that ends up doing two things.
Desmond Meade:
They dehumanize people and desensitizes their humanity. And so, when that happens, “Those people, I don’t want in my community.” But when you… Let me tell you. You want to talk about juvenile justice reform. I had this conservative guy approached me and like, “Well, Desmond, man, listen, I love what you’re saying. So, I need some help here. What are your suggestions around juvenile justice reform?” And I told him, “Listen, I am not an expert. That is not my area of expertise, but let me tell you a place that you can start. Imagine your son getting in trouble at school. How would you want him to be treated?”
Linda Franks:
There you go.
Desmond Meade:
That’s your start. That is where you start from. And when people make policies or laws based on how they would want their loved ones to be treated, we are in a much better space. You feel what I’m saying?
Linda Franks:
Yes.
Desmond Meade:
Much better. Taking it from those people to someone who you love. So, what do you want happen to your son when he’s released? Do you want him to not be able to get a job even 10 years after you’ve been released?
Dave Kartunen:
Have a place to live?
Desmond Meade:
Yep. Do you want him to have a place to live? And how will we create those type of questions right after we’ve connected the person or brought them into proximity of the issue? You do that. And so, let me tell you, I’ve seen this mistake over and over and over and over, over again. I’ve seen so many movements get so caught up in their head about how things should be done, that the drumbeat in their head drowns out everything else.
Linda Franks:
Everything else.
Desmond Meade:
And they’re marching for it and they’re steam rolling over things until they run into that one wall that just… And what happens is people around them lose even more hope. They didn’t really connect with the grassroots like they said that they were representing. And they get caught up in catchy phrases and not being able to defend those phrases or have… What they do, they take over the phrase. Co-op.
Linda Franks:
Yeah. They co-opt it. Yeah.
Dave Kartunen:
Yeah. We know those phrases.
Desmond Meade:
Okay. And so, I think what is so vitally important is that you understand. As I always said, you don’t have a monopoly on the pain, you don’t have monopoly on the solution.
Linda Franks:
Monopoly on the solution.
Desmond Meade:
You do not know everything. And even these thoughts that I’m sharing with you all today, I’m not saying that’s the only way that you can go, and if you do anything else, whatever, out of your mind. For what I am saying, as a person who has managed to win the most controversial issue in the most controversial state, during the most controversial time, and to do it in the fashion that we were able to do it, and having a leader with love, without attacking anyone, without having any endorsed, politicians endorse. We did things differently. And we were very successful with it. As a person that led that, these are some of the lessons that I’ve learned, that I think can be applied in a lot of things.
Linda Franks:
Well, they will be applied to this place. I can assure you of that, Desmond, because, it makes a lot of sense. And it’s good to know that as we are walking through what I feel, and hopefully, I’m not going to be right about this, but what we pass on and how we train those that are going to come after us, to pick up this gauntlet and to move this forward, is that they’re going to be moving in that vein. No longer that it’s us against them, but let me see your humanity and how we connect. How would you want to be treated in this situation? How can we come together and build something that’s going to be? Because I tell people all the time, the majority of us really just want to live peacefully.
Desmond Meade:
Say that again.
Linda Franks:
And honestly, together in this world.
Desmond Meade:
Let me tell you something, it’s not us against them.
Linda Franks:
No.
Desmond Meade:
Understand this. Because let me tell you. And I look at all of this in such a esoterical way. And matter of fact, let me see if I’m going to run through this, just to show you something. It’s a, about us being a part of this body. Is that the body don’t necessarily fight against itself. It’s not arm against leg or whatever. And I equate that even talking about… Like I said, we had a great opportunity to talk about this, even like I say, Black Lives Matter. You hear Black Lives Matter, and so many people have this push-back against that and all. And at the end of the day, what was people really trying to say? Well, guess what, I’m not going to be on this show and trying to impose my will on other people and try to speak for them, but let me tell you what I thought about and what I embraced when I hear Black Lives Matter. I see us all living in this country as part of body.
Linda Franks:
Amen.
Desmond Meade:
We’re one body. And when I look at the… I know that if I’m jogging somewhere and I twisted my ankle, my ankle sends a signal to my brain, “Something is wrong down there.” And my entire body responds to that right there. But when I twisted my ankle, and my ankle says, “Hey, something is wrong down here,” you don’t see the elbow saying, “But I matter too.” No, none of that happened. And Black Lives Matter, the way I look at it as, was nothing but a part of the body. That sending signal to the brain and saying, “Listen, there’s some trauma that’s happening down here that needs attention. And it’s not to say that I am better in the elbow.” Matter of fact, there’s not even a discussion about that. Well, this is what we do know. That if we don’t attend to that trauma, then the other parts of the body will eventually get affected.
Linda Franks:
You better come on now. You better teach
Desmond Meade:
Everything. And if we don’t take care of those who are weakest among us in our community, we’re going to end up feeling the brunt of that. And so, how do we create this understanding that is not about your side against my side, it’s not about us against them, it’s about one body that knows that we need each other to survive.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Desmond Meade:
To be as effective and powerful as possible. And so, what our body does is what we should be doing as a community.
Dave Kartunen:
Absolutely.
Desmond Meade:
That there’s a cry for help that’s saying that there’s trauma somewhere. We immediately respond right to that trauma and understand that we must fix or heal that trauma for us to get back to function the way we need to function.
Linda Franks:
Amen.
Desmond Meade:
And not ignore that trauma or try to trivialize that trauma, or try to redirect the attention that the trauma needs to other parts of the body that don’t need that attention right now.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Dave Kartunen:
Full body cast for a broken ankle, right?
Linda Franks:
That’s right.
Desmond Meade:
You know what I’m saying? And at the end of the day, it’s about how do we come together as a community to heal that. As a nation, as a country, having people understand that we are all a part of the same fabric, we’re all a part of that same fabric, and we can do that. Not let these politicians or these special interests that benefits off of the decision, to use us as puppets. And we have to watch our languages, but we’re able to shift that narrative. Man, let me tell you. Everybody know that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Linda Franks:
Weakest. That’s right.
Desmond Meade:
Everybody knows that. That applies to our community, our country. The greatness of our country is intimately tied to how much weight the segments of our society that has been the most weakened by various systems, can handle. Period. And if we want to become stronger, our community, our state, our country, then the only way that that happens, is by strengthening the weakest thing.
Linda Franks:
That’s it.
Desmond Meade:
Not by weakening the weakest link, because, when we’re weakening the weakest link, then we can have even less.
Dave Kartunen:
So, before we run over our time, Linda and I want to try something new with you. We want to end with rapid fire. I got three prompts for you. You ready?
Desmond Meade:
Okay.
Dave Kartunen:
What’s the first moment you can remember, where you confronted a system of oppression? Not what’s your favorite ice cream.
Desmond Meade:
The first moment was when I was living in a rural Illinois, I went to the gym to shoot some baskets, and the gym was closing. It was snowing and cold outside, and the security guard would not let me wait in the lobby area for my parents to pick me up, and he made me-
Dave Kartunen:
How old were you?
Desmond Meade:
That was the first. I was middle school age. And you’re ready? The security guard with African American.
Dave Kartunen:
Second one is there ought to be a law. Now we’re talking to a person who literally made a law, but if there was anything, there ought to be a law. It’s all yours.
Desmond Meade:
There ought to be a law that mandates that governments are driven by creating a more inclusive democracy.
Linda Franks:
Come on.
Dave Kartunen:
I love it.
Linda Franks:
Drop the mic.
Dave Kartunen:
And the last one is, a tiny bit self-serving for us, but also for our listenership, of where they need to go next to educate themselves. Who do you know? Who should people know?
Desmond Meade:
I want to say they should know Desmond.
Linda Franks:
Amen. That’s what came to your heart. That’s what came to your head.
Dave Kartunen:
Man, they better.
Desmond Meade:
And if you don’t, you better-
Linda Franks:
I will agree with that.
Dave Kartunen:
I’m okay with that answer. I am okay with that answer.
Linda Franks:
And I’m going to make sure they know Desmond. Can I say that without hurting anybody’s feeling? I just want to say again how absolutely… And I don’t want this to sound condescending or disingenuous in any way, but how proud I am of you. As a Black woman, as a black mother, as a sister, as a fellow human being on this earth, I’m very proud of you, I’m very proud of the work that you do, I’m very proud of your platform and what you stand for, and how you are seeking to bring so many people together. And I stand with you in solidarity because that’s where my heart lies too. I call myself… And this is a little crazy, but I call myself the white person whisperer because I have this uncanny knack, and I know it’s God-given, that whenever I’m in a situation, my white brothers and sisters gravitate towards me.
Linda Franks:
And most of the time, they are from those different walks. And when we leave each other, there has been an exchange and a deposit. And so, I understand exactly where you are coming from. And you empower me. What you’ve accomplished, empowers me here to know that that’s the way to go, that I’m on the right track with that. And I just appreciate you giving your time, honey. I appreciate you coming on and chopping it up with us for a little while. You’re so busy, and it’s so gracious of you to do that. And thank you.
Desmond Meade:
Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy speaking with you all. I mean, this was probably one of my best interviews in quite some time, and so, I really appreciate that.
Dave Kartunen:
Desmond Mead is a MacArthur genius grant fellow, one of the top 100 most influential people, and led the successful effort through Amendment 4 in Florida to restore voting rights to formerly incarcerated people.
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