Interview With Bianca Tylek Founder and Executive Director of WorthRises.org

Dave Kartunen:

Our guest this episode is Bianca Tylek who, if you are active on Twitter, you have heard a lot from lately. She’s a Harvard trained attorney who left a lucrative life in the financial services industry to start Worth Rises in New York. Their stated goal is to dismantle the prison industry and to end the exploitation of those it targets. And recently, she started a campaign on Twitter called Cash Tagged Prison, which of course also educated us on what the term cash tag.

Linda Franks:

Exactly.

Dave Kartunen:

Means, which we’re going to learn about.

Linda Franks:

I would say to you, that it is such an honor, really, to meet you and to share space with you right now. Because what you do is empowering for what I do. How do I circumvent this system? How do I crash it and bring it down when it … and I was thinking about it this morning. So I’m using two words, the people that it benefits are different from the people that profit from it. Does that make sense, what I’m saying?

Bianca Tylek:

Absolutely.

Linda Franks:

And so when I’m dealing with everyday people in my community, as I’m trying to do reform and actually close this facility down. I’m dealing with people who benefit from it. But then the people who profit from it, use the people that benefit from it as that shield of kind of separating us, so that we don’t see the commonalities in the fight. And I always knew it was about money. I actually call it Louisiana’s Coal Mines because people say Hillary Clinton really shot herself in the foot going to coal mine country saying, “I’m going to close the coal mine down.” Without having first explained that I want to replace it with something that’s not going to kill you.

Linda Franks:

And so that’s kind of what I see in my community, is that this is their coal mine. Rural areas that are mainly their economy, is the prison. Everybody works there, or the ancillary spokes of it all. How do we put that in a form that is so plain for people to understand? And then, the corporations that benefit from it are so far removed from the day to day people that are actually being targeted by it. That it’s almost hard to make that connection, until I found Worth Rises. And I just want to thank you for that.

Linda Franks:

So I am just really honored to be here with you. And I want to thank you because the work that you do in real time is going to help grassroot organizations, like myself and like so many, I’m sure that have reached out to you to thank you. To really get down to the nuts and bolts, to be able to show people how this slavery system actually real works.

Bianca Tylek:

Yeah, thank so much for having me. And also, for all your work. I think I just want to really reciprocate the honor to be here and to be sitting with you and to be having this conversation. And thank you for you, sharing your story, which I know is painful and hard and difficult. And also critical to the work that we uplift doing when we discuss these things because I mean, you’re right in every sense.

Bianca Tylek:

One thing that you were just talking about, the curriculum that we put out at Worth Rise is about the prison industry. And what we say is, knowledge is power. We know that. We know that when you know something, it is much, much, much easier to combat it and harder for others to put spokes in your wheel, when you have the information that you need to fight this powerful system. This system is one that feeds off of a lack of transparency. It feeds off of people who are unaware of how the system operates. And that’s what it relies on, in many ways, in order to not just cause the harm that it does, not just to prey on people. But to expand that predatory behavior.

Bianca Tylek:

So, I say we can yell from the steps of every capital building in the country, but there are people in that capital building, having meetings behind closed doors, who you don’t see, who you don’t hear. But who have a tremendous amount of influence and power that comes in the form of green paper. And that’s the part that we’re trying to unpack in many ways, so that we’re not selling our freedom in the way that bail requires us to. And that’s, what’s really reprehensible about the system, is people will trade a lot to be free. Because that’s what we all want.

Bianca Tylek:

So, I think over and over, we see this system just really attacking our communities in the most difficult ways. And you sort of alluded or talked about how dependent certain communities are on prisons and jails for jobs or other things that are related to the prison industry. And I like to refer to that as what we call human trafficking. It’s like notion that we will pick black and brown bodies out of urban and large park communities, and ship them up to rural communities for white jobs. And that, I think you rightly paralleled it to the coal industry. It’s like, we want to acknowledge that coal is bad in the way that prison is bad, but also understand that people need jobs and all of these things. It’s like, how do we find you better jobs? But regardless of whether we can or cannot find you better jobs, what we cannot do is be trafficking other people so that you have one.

Linda Franks:

Amen. Amen.

Dave Kartunen:

Yeah. Where the black and brown bodies become the economic inputs.

Bianca Tylek:

And not to mention, like it’s often not talked about, and there’s been study after study about it. Which is that communities that latched onto the prison boom for their economic stability, actually today over that time, since the eighties, nineties to now, have seen slower economic growth than communities that actually pursue-

Linda Franks:

Yes.

Bianca Tylek:

Other ventures in other ways to boost their economy. So it’s critical for folks to understand that prisons are sort of a bandaid to some kind of job crisis that is neither good for the economy of your community. Nor is it good for the mental health of your community because correctional jobs are not good jobs.

Dave Kartunen:

So let’s ask about one of those state capitals, because we just happen to have you here on a day where New York governor, Kathy Hochul has announced a … there are a number of really sad parallels along with this. One, it’s gotten no news attention yet. If you just look on the news coverage of her announcement, all you get is her gleaming, friendly press release at this point and no actual news articles.

Dave Kartunen:

That she wants to start contracting prison labor again in the state of New York. Which in her terms, sounds like a nice way to reduce recidivism and provide job training before people get out. However, what she leaves out is that maybe the state will garnish half of their wages. And that the reason states are allowed to do this is granted to them under the 13th amendment, which otherwise abolish slavery. I know how we hold Kathy Hochul and people like this accountable. But, how do we talk through that to people who say, “Oh, well, this seems okay.”

Bianca Tylek:

Thank you so much for raising that. It’s really sad to see what’s happening in New York. And it’s sad for so many reasons. I think you bring up one, which is the reality the 13th amendment has an exception clause in it. We recently did polling and found that roughly 88% of Americans do not know that the 13th exception, which is reported and celebrated for having abolished slavery, has an exception clause in it that it allows for this enslavement and involuntary servitude of people who have been convicted of a crime as punishment for that crime. We are leading work at the federal level behind the abolition amendment to end that exception. I encourage folks to visit www.endtheexception.com to actually tell their Congress members to do that.

Bianca Tylek:

So, that’s where that starts. It starts with that exception in the 13th amendment. And then you start really bleeding that down into the states and into other federal law. And so many states also include this exception in their state constitutions. And states that don’t, are silent on the issue. Which means that the 13th amendment prevails. And so unless you’re explicit about the issue in your state, it is legal for slavery and involuntary servant to be used as criminal punishment.

Bianca Tylek:

And so taking us to New York, this program that governor Hochul is looking to introduce, actually has its roots in federal law. It is not a new or unique program. So program that was actually started by federal law in 1979, under what was called the Prison Industry’s Enhancement Certification Program, lovely name. But the program basically allows, once again, for the contracting of prison labor to private sector and private vendors, private corporations. A practice that in large part, fell out of favor back in the 1920s.

Bianca Tylek:

And so in New York, the constitution, in fact, very explicitly states that private use of labor is unlawful. So in order for governor Hochul to actually implement her new policy, which is just an extension of this federal law, often referred to as the PI Program. And introducing that in New York, would actually require a state constitutional amendment. That is quite a high bar to try to introduce private use of prison labor in your state. In a state that is, in many ways, touted for being progressive and liberal, we are looking to reintroduce private use of labor.

Bianca Tylek:

One thing that is really critical in understanding that is that, there is also a campaign that we helped launch a few years ago called 13th Forward, that is currently led by Legal Aid Society, Color of Change, NYCLU and Citizen Action. That has been fighting since its launch to end force labor, to increase wages, to establish employment protections for people who are incarcerated, to do the things that we actually should be doing in 2022 to eradicate slavery and every vestige of slavery from our system.

Bianca Tylek:

And so while advocates are pushing for those type of amendments to the state constitution and not getting traction with the governor’s office, the governor is instead moving backwards and deciding why don’t we let private sector, private corporations have access to this prison labor. Knowing that they can be forced into labor, knowing that they have no right to necessarily prevailing wages. And as you notice, even in her legislation, which does allow for prevailing wages, as frankly required by the federal law, would allow for 50% garnishment of wages, no employment protections. This is what she’s willing to do.

Bianca Tylek:

The good news is that in order to amend the state constitution in New York, it takes passage of legislation in two separate legislative sessions and a ballot initiative. That means in order for governor Hochul to do this, it is a minimum of two to three years to have the state constitution actually amend it. Which means a number of things. It means that we have time, it means that we, as New Yorkers, have power. And that we should be exercising that power to ensure that we are actually working towards finally abolishing slavery once and for all. And not re-instituting the ugliest parts of our history.

Linda Franks:

It’s amazing how, even in this day and age, we can see things plainly in our faith and not even realize that they’re going on. I’ve been to the state capital in Louisiana, and you’ve got beautiful men and women there in orange jumpsuits who are working in the kitchens, feeding the legislators as they’re coming through. And I remember when one of our black lives matter activists had come through when Elton Sterling was murdered in Baton Rouge. And he was like, “You guys are okay with this? This looks like a plantation. This is exactly what this is.”

Linda Franks:

And we can definitely hold Angola in Louisiana as one of the major prison plantations in the world, not just the United States of America. And so dissecting this down, there were people and I would tell them, slavery has not truly been abolished. They were like, “What are you talking about?” And I was like, “Because of that clause.” But I must be frank in saying, that I was even unaware of the strides that have been made in some of the states that have actually amended their constitutions to take that out. And so the work has to be done, that education is paramount, Bianca. I mean, it is amazing how many of us are still in the dark about that. And living actually being targeted by these initiatives.

Dave Kartunen:

And it’s not just that they benefit from a lack of transparency, like Bianca points out. It’s also a subject material that a lot of the public would, frankly, not like to know about, that benefits them, as well. And we have Cash Tag prison, that we want to ask you about.

Linda Franks:

Yes.

Dave Kartunen:

Disclaimer, I’m not a crypto bro, and we had to look that up and figure out how to say it. But you launched Cash Tag prison on Twitter and you do that for the non technologically savvy, like me, by using the dollar sign instead of what used to be the pound sign, but is now the hashtag sign. And you can search it with Cash Tag $ Prison, and you’re showcasing and pulling back the curtain on people that are profiting off of human suffering. So how’s it going? I think is a good way to start.

Bianca Tylek:

Absolutely. And like you, Cash Tags was not something I was very familiar with before I started Cash Tag.

Dave Kartunen:

It’s what the kids are talking about.

Bianca Tylek:

Right.

Dave Kartunen:

It’s what the kids are talking about.

Bianca Tylek:

Before I started Cash Tag prison. This sort of the perfect emblematic, I think, label, that we can use for this industry. What it puts first, dollars and attaches them to prisons and caging and surveillance and everything that comes with it. So Cash Tag Prison started, honestly, in an accident. Every day I get these Google alerts, I have a whole bunch of things that I like to flag to read about. And every day I get my little group of Google alerts. And on that particular day, this was a few weeks ago, I had seen a number of companies and things going on that were just really infuriating. Banks that were helping underwrite loans for certain prison services companies. And you sort of name it, there was just like all flooded in my inbox.

Bianca Tylek:

And I was like, “I feel like people don’t know this.” I know people don’t know this. People do not know that the banks they bank with, the executives that they like honor on their museum boards, or that are owners of their favorite basketball teams and football teams, they are engaged in this industry, and their communities. And so, I sort of quickly took to Twitter, as one does when they have something to say and no one to listen … no, I’m joking. And I posted, I said, “Look like, it’s time we talk about the prison industry. And if you’re interested in learning about the prison industry and who’s involved.”

Bianca Tylek:

It’s going to be deeper than, is McDonald’s using or not using. Like, it’s really about the core of this industry, an industry that has more than 4,000 corporations in it. Like what does that look like? For everybody, Linda, who’s not going to read the curriculum and do the curriculum. I was like, “Here is one way to do a quick, like every day, your daily tidbit on what is the prison industry.” And so, I encourage people to follow along and I was really blown away by the response. The tweet sort of went viral and within two days and over 60,000 likes and retweets and whatever else happens on Twitter. And then I realized I signed up for something I didn’t mean to sign up for.

Dave Kartunen:

As one does on Twitter.

Bianca Tylek:

As one does on Twitter, right. A daily thread of information, committing to news sources without having to go deep into the treasure boxes. I always tell people, there’s like plenty of things, very active. You don’t need to go that far into history to see really egregious corporate behavior. And I also think, things change over time. So I tell people all the time, “Don’t repeat the things you’ve heard about brands you’ve heard about. Because a lot of that information and data is outdated.”

Bianca Tylek:

But what we’re doing with Cash Tag Prisons is really giving the right now. Like, who are the corporations? What are they doing? How are they impacting people’s lives? How are they, in many ways, destroying and harming people’s lives? So that people see not just the corporations, which is important. But even when a corporation isn’t familiar to you, that you see the practice. And you see the policies and you see the impact and you see the people. And you are enraged enough to do something, whether that’s addressing that corporation or that’s addressing the policy that allows them to cause the harm that they do.

Bianca Tylek:

The one thing that’s also and spurred by some of the original comments to my original tweet was the interest in actually, what can we do? And so every day, the thread ends with, what can you do? And some kind of call to action, whether that’s an action that is to change policy, signing a petition, calling your legislator, something like that. Or it’s simply an action to learn more. Because you cannot go advocate until you know what you’re talking about. And so many of the calls to action are to learn more and even some sprinkled here and there, are just to take care of ourselves.

Linda Franks:

Yeah. So that was going to be the bulk-

Dave Kartunen:

And maybe spend less time on Twitter.

Linda Franks:

Yeah. Well, for those who are not tweeting. The old hens are like, “Tweet, what is that baby, you talking about?” It’s so amazing to have this where you can go and not only retweet it, honey, but screenshot it. Look at me, screenshotting stuff. And being able to share it with-

Bianca Tylek:

Love it.

Linda Franks:

People who can use it practically, every day. People who say, “How can I get involved? What can I do? I don’t like that this is going on.” But I mean, I think one of the examples that you did was like 3M, nobody knew … I mean, I didn’t even know the scope of 3M and all of the different products that they had coming out and that prison labor was being responsible for. Because we get that old idea of just license plates. The prisoners in there, they’re just like banging out license plates.

Linda Franks:

But even with that being said, that is a job that they’re not getting paid to do, that that facility is benefiting from, that the state is benefiting from, and we need to hold them accountable. Because there are people who are in society that need jobs, that could probably use a license plate factory. And not only that, but I know in my work, we’re thinking, you’ve got some people in here and they’ve got child support payments that they need to pay. I was talking to a young lady who had been formally incarcerated and she was talking about the fact that she had a balance when she first got arrested, she went in with a balance. Because they drug tested her and she’s got to pay for that drug test. By the time she got ready to get out, she had so much money that she owed that she couldn’t even get money on her book, she was putting in somebody else’s name. Because they were just taking it to go towards her balance.

Bianca Tylek:

Very common.

Linda Franks:

So you got these people working for 86 cents an hour, I think you might have said.

Bianca Tylek:

That’s generous, 86 cents a day is the average.

Linda Franks:

Oh, a day. Exactly, that’s what it was. And if you’re going to do that, if they’re going to work, why can’t it benefit society? Why can’t it benefit their children? That’s truly-

Bianca Tylek:

At the end of the day, slavery can’t get us. Like it just can’t. Like there’s no version of enslaving people, there’s no version of the statement, like they deserve it. There’s nothing that says, “This is how we make people whole. This is how we restore communities. This is how we heal trauma. This is how we rehabilitate people. This is how we treat substance abuse.” Like none of those is the answer, slavery.

Linda Franks:

Right.

Bianca Tylek:

To none. And a society that continues to promote slavery cannot be one held in high esteem. And that can’t be proud of itself in that form. We have to say like, we can’t solve violence with violence. This is the type of thing that we’re like trying to rebuff. And so, we need to figure out how in 2022, to finally be able to say like no slavery, no exceptions.

Linda Franks:

Right.

Bianca Tylek:

And the fact that we’re still having that conversation is really alarming, but critical. And I think, Linda, you bring up so many important issues regarding like how the economic instability of people who are inside, affects their communities and their families on the outside who. That’s really critical. I mean, many people are in prison because of economic inability, because of what they were doing to support their families may or may not have been above bar. But taking that resource completely away from them and their families, now leaves everyone in a hole, except for the state and others who are benefiting off their labor.

Bianca Tylek:

And just to close in the thought of the license plate. A lot of times what I try to do with both Cash Tag Prison and other of the educational resources we put out at Worth Rises is to really get people to think a little bit below the surface. And think about the things that maybe they haven’t. And so, for example, the question about license plate. Sure, there’s the conversation about who makes them and all of that. But then there’s the question about like, where does the metal come from?

Linda Franks:

Material come from?

Bianca Tylek:

The laminate come from? Because it doesn’t magically show up in the prison, it’s there because somebody sold it to the prison, knowing what it was going to be used for. And that’s where 3M makes most of its money, by not necessarily … even though it does use prison labor in one prison, in Minnesota where it’s headquartered. The majority of its role in prison labor is not even the explicit use of prison labor. It is the exploitation of that labor by serving correctional industries. And so really unpacking, what is a supply chain? Not just down the supply chain, how does it get to us? But, what’s up the supply chain? Who are the suppliers and the manufacturers before we even get to, where does prison labor happen?

Dave Kartunen:

Yeah. That secondary part is something I wanted to be sure to ask you about. And it is a sort of a deeper level of the surface. There are those supply chain beneficiaries. And then there are all these sort of … I mean, you brought up banks as another one who are providing funds. There are shareholders. I mean, it just seems disgusting to me that I would want to invest my money into a publicly traded company that’s warehousing people or using humans as inputs. But there’s defense attorneys who have contracts with sheriff offices who can’t keep their detainees alive. There are consultants who are brought in to get paid exorbitant hourly rates to “fix the problems” that are systemic in these institutions.

Bianca Tylek:

There are insurance companies-

Dave Kartunen:

There are insurance companies. We could go-

Linda Franks:

Healthcare companies. Yeah.

Dave Kartunen:

Linda and I are probably a lot more than casually familiar with some of these. But take the listeners on a tour this next level beyond the supply chain.

Bianca Tylek:

Absolutely. Often times when you think about the prison industry, what we always hear, this is like the top three and that’s about as deep as it goes.

Dave Kartunen:

Yeah.

Bianca Tylek:

People. And it’s like, the top one is private prisons. People are like, “That’s bad.” Even though most people have no concept of how like common or not common they are. People generally think, “Oh, if we abolish private prisons, we like have won.” We have not won anything, frankly. But it’s an important step, we should do it.

Bianca Tylek:

Then the next thing you hear about is prison labor. And everybody wants to talk about prison labor and how Victoria Secret once upon a time used prison labor. Sure, all that’s true. It doesn’t anymore. And also prison labor is important, we need to end slavery, all of these things. Also not the end of the road with what the prison industry is.

Bianca Tylek:

Then you get some folks who might, if they have a direct experience, be familiar with prison telecom, let’s say, or commissary. But basically these costs that are obviously born in many cases by families. But again, that then being that like last sort of level, and you kind of really have to have familiarity with the system to even know about that. But that’s where it ends.

Bianca Tylek:

And that is still just the tip of the iceberg. That the reality is there are companies that fund let’s say construction and architecture companies, that do campaign financing behind sheriffs, so that they can get the construction contract to replace a jail. There are, as we were saying, the insurance companies behind police associations and police departments that help rebuff and fight families like yours, Linda, who lost a loved one and negotiate how much that settlement should be and ensure against that. There are the muni bonds, there’s the, what we call it, police brutality muni bonds in an organization called acre, that’s done incredible work around them. And who issues those muni bonds? Not just obviously them municipality, but the underwriters, the banks who are helping them put out bonds to pay for police brutality.

Bianca Tylek:

There are companies like Aramark that provide food services inside prisons and jails, and have been repeatedly and consistently sued for all types of violations, unconstitutional, cruel, and unusual punishment stemming from food that has rodent feces and body parts in it. And nevertheless, continue to operate. There are the healthcare companies that leave pregnant women to literally give birth in jail cells alone. And to be held accountable. The list of corporations that are engaged in the prison industry in one way or another is extensive. Sometimes it feels endless, but it is a list that we need to be prying into more aggressively every single day. So that our economy is not based on caging of people. And so what we like to say at Worth Rise is we want to shut down the industry and shift the economy away from caging and control of human beings.

Linda Franks:

Yeah. And I mean, that’s just so powerful. I mean, like you said, again, knowledge is powerful. And a lot of people can’t think past the very superficial things that we think about. Like you said, telecom and commissary, that are just right there in your face because it is so massive. And I tell you that, in this work that we do, trying to get people to actually buy into the vision of what public safety can mean without all of these layers. So now what do we shift to? Where there are community based organizations that are ready and willing to take up these causes outside of the mass incarceration system.

Linda Franks:

And so I love what you say about not making it profitable to detain people. And I think that’s one of the things about re-imagining, we’ve got to give them the vision, but they can’t see the vision if they don’t know the truth behind what’s driving the monster in the first place. I always tell them that, when they’re targeting my neighborhood, when they’re targeting my child, I know they’re feeding the beast. The beast has to be fed. And then they buy into our fears that people are going to jump through our windows and kill us in our sleep. When the reality is, that the majority of the people that are being detained in these facilities are there for lifestyle things. Poverty driven things.

Linda Franks:

And so this information is just so powerful and I thank you so much for not only revealing the problem. But then saying, “Look, this is what you can personally do to get involved. Educate yourself and then disassociate, let these people know we’re not doing business with you.” Which then opens up the door for more entrepreneurship because we got to have somebody to replace these son of a bitches that are profiting.

Bianca Tylek:

Yeah, 100%. I mean, so a lot of times, and I know you’ve heard this before. Like don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time, and all this stuff. A lot of times what I want to tell people, because this is like a really important part of the like economic beast, as you call it, Linda. Which is, who decides what’s a crime?

Dave Kartunen:

Yeah.

Linda Franks:

And why did they decide that it was a crime?

Bianca Tylek:

Right. This isn’t just about the consequences of like what is currently considered a crime. But it’s about who gets to decide what a crime is. So why is marijuana legalization taken as long as it has? Because there were three critical lobbies alcohol, pharmaceuticals and private prisons that lobbied against marijuana legalization for more than a decade. And why? Because those three stood to lose if marijuana was legalized.

Bianca Tylek:

Right now, we’re seeing a lot of corporations, particularly storefronts looking at larceny and felony larceny rules. And asking for the enforcement and more tough on crime type policies around larceny, theft from their stores. So again, they’re trying to influence what is a crime and what level of a crime it should be, in order to protect either their businesses or to feed their businesses in one way or another. So really understanding that even what is our criminal law is fed by corporate interests that get to decide those things. And not by policies that feed our public safety, as you said.

Bianca Tylek:

And my sort of favorite example that I often give is, ask yourself why, when you have insurance on your phone, let’s say your iPhone, your Android, whatever you got. You have insurance on your phone. And the idea is if your phone gets lost or stolen, you’ll be able to get a new phone. What’s the number one thing you need in order to get that insurance to actually give you a new phone? You’ve been paying them for two years, a monthly fee to give you your new phone. And when you lose it or when you have it stolen, they want you to go to the cops. And they want you to get a letter from the police, a police report, you call it to justify why they should give you what you paid for.

Linda Franks:

What you’ve been paying for. You better speak true, girl.

Bianca Tylek:

Because you didn’t trust me when I was paying that $10 every month.

Linda Franks:

That’s right.

Bianca Tylek:

The cops to validate me. Like our entire system is feeding corporations and financial institutions and greed every last way. And that is what the police literally back in the 1800s were set for, slave catching.

Linda Franks:

Yeah.

Bianca Tylek:

Protecting property, plantation owners and all of that. And that’s what they do today.

Linda Franks:

That’s exactly right.

Dave Kartunen:

Are you sure you don’t have like 40 more minutes for us just to tell you how wonderful we think your work is.

Linda Franks:

Just say it, girl. I’m just saying, I have totally forgotten about Mardi Gras, the hell with that. Let my people go, set them free is what I’m talking. In their minds, girl. You got to know, when I go down to Mobile Mardi Gras, and this is full disclosure for all of our podcast listeners. I’m talking about what I’ve talked about today. I’m sorry, Dave, did I date our podcast? You’re going to cut me-

Dave Kartunen:

Nope. I’m not going to cut you off, you’re on a roll. You’re almost a 10. Linda’s almost a 10.

Linda Franks:

I’m almost there.

Dave Kartunen:

We’re almost there. Linda’s always worried I’m going to cut her off when she gets going-

Linda Franks:

I was so excited-

Dave Kartunen:

I’m like, this is the good stuff.

Linda Franks:

To speak to you today. And I’m just thinking, “Oh my God, what an amazing woman you are.” What an amazing little force of nature that God has blessed us with in this earth, to be able to help us with this Goliath. And I just thank you so much for heating that call. I am so sorry for what you had to go through that brought you to this place. Because I know you spoke about the murder of your boyfriend when you were 15 years old. And I know the pain of losing someone close and how that is a daily thing. But it’s a North Star, as well, as my Lamar is for me and my family. And the work that you have done has moved us forward.

Bianca Tylek:

Thank you both so much. It’s really been a pleasure talking to you both. And I’m so excited for the work, Linda, that you’re doing and your podcast, both of you.

Dave Kartunen:

Thank you.

Linda Franks:

Thank you-

Bianca Tylek:

Thank you.

Linda Franks:

For taking time out of your life.

Dave Kartunen:

Bianca Tylek is the Founder and Executive Director of Worth Rises. We have a link to the organization and to her TED Talk, which tells the story about how she came to this work. You can find both of those links in the links we mentioned section of the Fair Fight Initiative Podcast website.

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